In this episode, Vicky Eldridge and Eddie Hooker sit down with Debbie Thomas, one of the UK’s leading laser and skincare experts, known for her science-led, results-driven approach to skin health. Founder of the renowned D.Thomas Clinic in Chelsea, she’s widely respected for her work with advanced laser technology and treating complex skin conditions. Recently, she has expanded her expertise into product development and will be launching her own skincare range, designed to work in synergy with clinical treatments. Tune in to learn about the role of laser technology in modern aesthetics, how to safely integrate lasers into clinical practice, and the inspiration and vision behind Debbie’s own skincare range.
Vicky Eldridge: Welcome to the Aesthetics Business Cast. I'm Vicky Eldridge and I'm hosting today with the wonderful Eddie Hooker, CEO and founder of Hamilton Fraser, and in this episode, me and Eddie are going to sit down with Debbie Thomas. She's one of the UK's leading laser and skin care experts, known for her science-led results driven approach to skin health. She's the founder of the renowned D Thomas Clinic in Chelsea and she's widely respected for her work with advanced laser technology and treating complex skin conditions. Recently, she's expanded her expertise into product development, and she's gonna be launching her own skin care range. So excited to talk to her about that.
Vicky Eldridge: Debbie Thomas, welcome. Lovely to have you on the podcast!
Debbie Thomas: Thank you for having me excited to be here.
Vicky Eldridge: It's really great to have you.
Eddie Hooker: Fantastic
Vicky Eldridge: So I mentioned in that introduction that you're known as one of the UK's top advanced facialists you've got a host of celebrity clients and stuff, but tell us about your journey into aesthetics, cause I think sometimes people see you in the magazines or see how successful your clinic is and they might think you've jumped straight into that and you haven't, have you, you’ve had a long journey to where you are now.
Debbie Thomas: Yeah. No, absolutely. And it wasn't, it wasn't a planned journey either. It all happened sort of quite naturally a progression. I started off doing a Applied Sciences, diploma in applied sciences and beauty therapy about 25 years ago, and that was very much a beauty therapy course, but had quite a lot of heavy science entwined in it as well, which I was really interested in. And I went on from that to working at a salon and from that became more and more interested in skin itself and more skin care rather than general beauty therapy. I then became a facialist and.
Eddie Hooker: I like that
Vicky Eldridge: It’s a good word
Debbie Thomas: Focused just on doing facials rather than the typical waxing or nails. From there I was headhunted by someone who asked me to be a trainer for their a product range that they were bringing into the UK, which was based in LA, which meant I was very fortunate. I get to go to LA to do training with the founder of the brand and then come back to the UK and. And in Europe, to do training. So I was training people, but during that process I really enjoyed it and I got a lot out of it, but I missed hands on, yeah treatments.
And so I sort of started putting the word out that I was interested in getting back into into a salon environment.
And I ended up working in a salon that also had a doctor there, and they did have a couple of devices they had some IPL and they had some other bits. Now I'd never experienced that side of the beauty industry before that sort of more advanced stuff. So it was all very new to me and actually at first I was quite resistant to it because, as I was told at the time, I had magic hands. Why would I need a laser? You know? So, but I did. I did. Get offered to go on the training for the IPL and I was initially a bit like ohh can I be bothered. And then I thought actually, you know what, people might ask me about it. At least I can recommend it to them even if I'm not going to do it myself well. Within about 10 minutes of being in the room with this this beautiful device I just knew that was going to be the future of skin care and this is going back probably 18/19 years ago now.
And so I made a really big decision at that point as a facialist. I had already made a bit of a name for myself. I had some really well known clients. I was in a few. I'd already been in a few articles. I was being hailed the next Super Facialist, and I basically walked away from all of that and became a junior working in Harley Street in a dedicated laser clinic.
And I did that for five years and really it was to learn the trade and understand it and feel comfortable because it is a world minefield of different stuff all these different lasers and actually being surrounded by some really experienced laser practitioners. You know, I just I became a giant sponge to try and absorb or you know or absorb as much of their guidance as I possibly could, but it did come to a point where I was looking at the treatments. I was loving the results we were achieving, but I knew we could do so much more and I felt that we could use the lasers in a more intelligent way and hence me eventually leaving to start my own business so I could try a slightly different method.
Eddie Hooker: So do you just offer laser or is it a more combined, holistic approach to skin care?
Debbie Thomas: It's all aesthetics based but non injectable so we don't do anything that would be considered in the more medical realm, but we use everything from obviously micro needling to LED lights to all the different energy based devices peels. So we work all in within that realm. But all of my, you know, all of my therapists come from beauty background. So there's, you know, a bit of massage in there, some lymphatic drainage. We do, you know, so we do look at each person as a whole. And we we do quite comprehensive and bespoke treatments for them.
Eddie Hooker: And this is the minefield, isn't? For new therapists, practitioners coming into the market, I mean, we've just talked about a few of those you know. Lasers, lights and LED and all of these IPL, all of these abbreviations, all of these different technologies. Where does someone start? I mean, what are the emerging technologies? When I was growing up with this, when you were doing this years ago, you know, there was laser and IPL, and that was about it.
Vicky Eldridge: And ablative lasers wasn’t it?
Eddie Hooker: Very, very straightforward. And you'd be insured for, you know, have that on your schedule laser and IPL and really no one understood underneath what these different machines were doing. Where is the technology going Debbie, and where should a new practitioner or an existing clinic looking to expand their services? Where do they start?
Debbie Thomas: I mean, I always think that you should start right at the beginning, which is actually some kind of course that gives you an overview of everything that is available in the UK, we're a little bit lacking in excellent courses, but we do have a few that could be quite interesting. I think. Lynton do a very, very good one because they do cover multiple technologies, even though they focus a little bit on their own devices, they have lots of different technologies within that.
There's another company called Skin Philosophy Training as well. I think they use multiple different devices in their training. There isn't anyone out there that I think. I think there could be a better course and a more comprehensive course and I hope and I hope it is coming. But getting an overview of what is available as a whole and understanding that it's not about the brand name, it's about the technology what energy, that device delivers.
Then you can start thinking to yourself, you know? Should I be getting a a, let's say, an IPL or an alexandrite laser when you might know that most of your client base has actually got darker skin tones? Well, they're not suitable for darker skin tones. Really, so. You would be getting the wrong device for your clinic, so understanding your demographic, understanding the technologies behind all the different devices and where they would sit within your thing and also as well I think you want a device that you know you're going to be able to use on a lot of people. So not a device that is too specific or targeted because that will really narrow the amount of people that you can use it on. And if you're investing a lot of money, you wanna be able to use that machine as much as possible. So something that offers perhaps a slightly wider spectrum of different treatments that can be formed but be performed with and that you know, is going to be safe to use on the sort of demographic that you’re working on.
Eddie Hooker: But do you think I mean, therapists coming up through the ranks? I mean, dare I say beauticians, can I use that terminology? They go through their NVQ levels, don't they? Is that overall principle of laser work is that's taught at a certain level, whereas perhaps medical practitioners, nurses, doctors, dentists who don't necessarily have had that background in in this type of skin care do do you tend to find that the beauticians know more. The therapists know more than the medical practitioners.
Debbie Thomas: I think when it comes to general skin care, absolutely, because that's a dedicated training that they have already gone through, whereas I think medical practitioners obviously are taught very clinically and in a very different way. They're taught to treat disease and injury and things not necessarily just general well-being of the skin.
The ability to learn that is there for everyone. It's even a beauty therapist coming through and as an NVQ3, my beauty skin training. I mean it was very nice. I learned how to touch people’s faces very well. I sort of got a general idea of the difference between an oily and a dry skin. Yeah, but I wasn't taught in depth skin analysis and really a full understanding I had to do that myself by further, you know, advanced training and furthering it so that so when I realised that my interest was in skin, I took it upon myself to become as knowledgeable about skin as I could by going on any courses that I could, but also reading, you know, getting the books watching, now you can watch YouTube things you can do, but you just really need to educate yourself on the people people that you're working on, you know the skin colours, you're working on the skin conditions that you're working on and understand your limits as well. You know you need to sort of say, I know I can quite happily treat a little bit of a a sunspot, but I'm not gonna touch melasma. Maybe. Yeah. If you're not confident with it. Get your get your zone and understand it.
Eddie Hooker: I mean, I think this is a challenge, isn't it? Because most clinics they're sold the training as part of a machine specific package, and of course a lot of the people selling the machines, a lot of the companies send out their salespeople, you know, and the world is your oyster, and you're going to take over the whole of.
Vicky Eldridge: Yes, this one device is everything you need.
Eddie Hooker: Absolutely. So what are the main considerations that you would be? What are the main tips that you would be giving? Either a new start up clinic or a clinic looking to expand more away from the traditional Botox fillers that you know holistic approach. What would be the main issues you would ask them to think about?
Debbie Thomas: Well, number one is training. It always goes back to training. Yeah, it always comes back to training because a lot of the manufacturers do offer training and some of them much better than others. I mean, some of them, honestly, it's not even worth getting out of bed for. But there is some training where they do give you very good. Good guidance on how the device works and and how you can work with it, but until you've done you know 10, 15, 20, 50 treatments, you don't build your confidence up. So I always think that if you do get a new device in use it cautiously to start off with. I would much rather have to retreat someone for free. I know it's a pain and it's our time, but I would rather do that than have someone that comes back to me with a serious side effect or issue post treatment. As you get more and more confident with your device you will get more confident with your settings but it is always better to start cautiously and build up as you get more comfortable. If you've got someone in front of you that you have never treated that skin colour before or that skin type or skin condition before don't feel pressurised into doing it either. Again go into it very cautiously. Contact your manufacturer, double check with them, maybe how they would approach it if you have got a network through your manufacturer which a lot of them do, you can maybe ask colleagues who have if anyone has treated that particular condition before and see if you can get some feedback before doing it. But you know I think, the, the strongest power that you have to not make any mistakes is the ability to say no.
If someone is sat in front of you, if someone is sat in front of you and you feel uncomfortable and unsure, it is better to say I'm really sorry, but I can't treat you. However, hopefully you've got a network of people that you can maybe recommend onto.
And do you know what that person will respect you so much? They will also then recommend their friends to you and potentially come back to you for other things because you would have built trust with them. Whereas if you try and storm ahead and you end up creating, you know, an issue with their skin, you're number one, you're gonna feel absolutely awful. I mean, no one in our business wants someone to look or feel worse than when they came in, but you are also going to create a whole load of negativity which could result in. You know, reviews online or just them bad mouthing you in the local community and you know, so no is is much better than than trying to grab.
Eddie Hooker: And what, Debbie. Sorry, Vicky, I'm taking over here. But so talk to me a little bit about on that point. Patch testing. What's your view? Because I grew up in the. With Hamilton Fraser, when lasers were starting to take hold and we there was two things I was always went through my mind. 1 patch testing and then allowing a period of time between the actual test and then the actual treatment, and then the aftercare, you know, about not going into the sun. A lot of customers, consumers, patients, whatever you want to call them, would, you know, suddenly be getting married on Saturday and suddenly think, wow, I need to get my and, you know, go in on the Wednesday for a Saturday wedding and then fly off to Barbados on the Sunday for that, for the for the honeymoon. So talking about patch testing, what's your view? We get a lot of questions on that.
Debbie Thomas: Yeah. I mean, there are a few lasers out there like the sub ablatives and maybe some others where I think the results are not the treatment isn't a photosensitivity treatment, so you would only really be testing to see what the longer term outcome would be. So sometimes with those type of treatments, I'm not sure a test patch is as necessary.
But anything where the light is really interacting with the tissue, like causing a lot of heat deep in the skin, you do need to see the response that someone's gonna have, and especially so with your darker skin tones. It is really, really essential. So I mean, I've got someone that came into me yesterday for a with a skin type 6 who I did the laser MD, ultra on and I don't normally test patch for the laser ultra, but for her I said look, I'm gonna test patch you and not only am I gonna test patch you, I'm also gonna make you wait a week before you come in to see me. Even though they laser MD, they have a protocol for skin type 6. I want to be sure myself.
Eddie Hooker: In your own mind.
Debbie Thomas: Yeah, she's gonna be fine. And she respected that. And she was really happy to do it. And so she went away and did it with all of my other devices, though the, you know, the IPLs, the Nd:AGs, the alexandrites, there's a lot of power going into someone’s skin. You just need to be sure that they're not going to have an unusual reaction if they did come up with a rash or a bruise or some kind of heat allergy reaction, or, you know, even worse blistering, you know, much better that that's happening on a very small small patch than it's happening when it's happening.
Eddie Hooker: On a whole are
Debbie Thomas:Your whole face. So. So a story for you. When I very first started. So this is going back many, many years ago. I had a client come in to the clinic. I was working in and she came in for hair removal on her face. So I checked her previous settings. She'd been to the clinic a few times it was the first time I treated her, I did her face. And she said, oh, can you also do my tummy? So she had a small line of hair on her tummy and I just instinctively went down, did the same setting, did her stomach. Three days later we got a call that her stomach had burnt. Now she hadn't been in the sun. She hadn't. There was. No. Yeah, it wasn't. She hadn't been in the sun.
Eddie Hooker: Done everything you'd asked her to do.
Debbie Thomas: Prior to her treatment, so it wasn't like her body had a tan and her face didn't. Her body actually, if anything, looked a little bit lighter than her face. Those I always assumed your face would be more sensitive than your thing and it wasn't, and she was probably skin type 4-5. So it meant she got hyperpigmentation after the treatment we we managed to treat it, you know, took us a a few months to get it all back to normal, but that was a real light bulb moment for me as a quite a new therapist coming in to I think only been doing it for a year to never take things for granted. You know, test each area you're treating, everything responds differently.
Eddie Hooker: Yeah, because I would always err on caution, especially for skin types 4-5 and six I would always be saying do a patch test. For the lighter skins I think you can get away. Cause away with it. Cause I think skin bleaching is an issue or certainly used to be. It's probably got a lot better.
Vicky Eldridge: The technology has changed a lot, hasn't it? So now there's lasers that say that you can do it on tanned skin and stuff like that, don't they? They say ohh safer hair removing on tanned skin and all these different types of things and that. That’s changed a lot over the years.
Eddie Hooker: Because we get a lot of questions, that's probably the most common question we get from our our, our customers and practitioners is well, I don't want to send the customer away the patient away because they won't come back or I'm sending them down to my competitor. Can I not just do it here and then? And we've got a clause in our policy that says you must test patch test, but the argument is, well, 24 hour, 48 hour a week you gave one on your situation. What's your view? I mean, would you get angry as a customer of mine, if I said well, you’re going to need to patch test.
Debbie Thomas: I don't know. I think most people come into our type of environment understanding. It's a more advanced treatment and that you know there should be a little bit of a cooling off period and a bit of an understanding. I think if you do your consultation well and they trust you they will have no problem going away and coming back to you.
Eddie Hooker: I agree with that.
Debbie Thomas: The only reason that they would be going to your competitor down the road is because they thought you weren't.You didn't stand out enough to them for them, for them to think that they want to come back to you again, they're like, OK, well, yeah, you were alright. But I'm not that bothered. I'll go down the road because they're alright as well. You know you need to elevate yourself and you do that through knowledge and education. You know, I always see my consultations as an education of my my clients, not a sales pitch.
And by educating them and making them feel confident in my capabilities and knowledge they then won't go anywhere else because they trust that I will give them a better treatment and a safer treatment.
Vicky Eldridge: Yeah, and sorry, you're very much part of your business still, aren't you? After however many years you've been going, you know, you're very hands on with your business. How do you manage like the work life balance and is it important to you to sort of be there? Be a presence it's got your name above the door and to be seeing patients face to face and your clients face to face and doing the treatments yourself.
Debbie Thomas: Yeah, it's quite an interesting question. So I've got lots of friends who are entrepreneurs not in this industry, but just in general and we we have this conversation a lot between us and I think the reality is, you know, the Instagram sold work life balance is 150% a myth. It just doesn't exist. It is people lying to you. There are considerations though.
You know, if you're happy with the business that gives you a nice life and pays for your bills and allows you to do what you want with your family and a little bit of security and you're happy to keep it that way, it is possible, I think to maybe step back slightly and find a bit of a bit of a balance between, a lifestyle business maybe I'm not sure. But if you want to grow your business and be a bigger brand and do bigger and greater things, then you need to put the work in. You have to be there, you have to turn up, you have to.You know, I have holidays, but you know every single. I never switch off. I'm answering emails. I'm doing phone calls. I try and be, you know, creative with how I do that. You know, I try and do all my stuff when I'm on holiday, maybe in the morning. Sort of. During breakfast, me and my husband will sit there and have a long breakfast, but we'll both be answering our emails and we try not to for the rest of the day if we can help it. But there will always be an emergency and one of us will always say to the other cause we run the business together and we deal with very different aspects of it. We'll be like, oh, I've got to deal with this e-mail. I've got to do and you can't do anything about it because there's no one else that will step in and do that for you when you are the kind of the last.
Eddie Hooker: I think do you know what on on that point, having built Hamilton Fraser over the last 30 years as well. This is just quite a funny story. You go on holiday and you're lying on your sunbed and your family are screaming at you. Relax, relax. It can wait. So you relax. And then the natural thing to do then is to pick your phone up, isn't it when you relax and then pings the e-mail and then you think, oh, well, I just answer that.You know, because it will be there if I don't get when I if I don't deal with it now, it will all.
Vicky Eldridge: It all like stacks up when you get back.
Eddie Hooker: So I think entrepreneurs, I think they're generally driven and the work life balance doesn't generally become an issue for if you've organised your business correctly, it generally doesn't become an issue for the individual because that's what they love doing. Yeah, you know, and they want it to be better all the time. You never sleep, do you? Probably moaning about how you're going to make it better.
Debbie Thomas: No, no. Ah, hundred. Yeah, 100%. I love what I do and I love all aspects. I like. I love still being a therapist and doing the treatments I really enjoy learning every day, which you do when you're working with so many different people. But I love running a business. I like the challenge of it and the creativity of it and the things I mean, of course, wouldn't it be lovely if I could flick my fingers and there was no stress and no money worries and?
Eddie Hooker: Then you’d have something else to worry about.
Debbie Thomas:But it's it's it's all aspects of it that actually do, you know, I find quite fulfilling. So I enjoy it. So at the moment I'm happy to keep pushing myself because I want to, but I also know if I ever wanted to not push so hard anymore. I have got viable business that I could probably step back with that would stabilise it would sort of stay as it is but if I wanna move forward, which is what I'm trying to do, then I will keep pushing.
Vicky Eldridge: What do you think about, we’re always hearing and you are in the press a lot. So you they probably asking you about trends all the time and we touched earlier on on some of the things like combination treatments and things like this. What's your thought on trends and? Because we're hearing a lot about treatment stacking at the moment, but that's something you've done with your DNA treatments from like really early on do do trends play a part in what you do or do you just keep your head down and carry on?
Debbie Thomas: I have never, ever, ever done a trend at all. Every single person that walks into my clinic gets what they need. Not what not what an influencer has said is great. You know, I think it's great that it's being highlighted, that combination treatments are giving better results because they do, as I say, when I start my business 16 years ago, the reason I left Harley Street to start my own business was because I already knew. That that's what needed to be done and I wasn't allowed to do that working for someone else. So I left because everyone was going. You're not allowed to. You're not allowed to combine, mix or do you just have to follow very strict protocols? So. And I'm like, but I don't understand how we're ever gonna move forward as an industry if we follow very strict protocols, but equally my thought process was always very much on the safety of the client, so I knew that if I was combining I would have to be much more cautious with my settings. So rather than trying to do lots of aggressive settings with multiple devices, I'm doing much more cautious settings. But combining my energies which works really well. So again when I got asked about this at the aesthetic medicine show. It was sort of about combination therapies. How do you how do you combine and I said, well, number one, I wouldn't combine until I was really competent with each individual device first. And you really understand it. Some of the some of the manufacturers now though, who have multiple devices or devices that are platforms perhaps are actually putting out protocols which are combination now, which they didn't used to do. So that's quite a good starting point. But certainly if you have multiple devices in your in your clinic make sure you fully understand everything about that device, the treatment, the pros, the cons, all the potential side effects before you then start adding other things in. And what I do from a safety perspective is whatever the settings are that they're telling me to use, if I know I'm combining 2 devices, I'm automatically turning all of my settings down. And that just gives me a little bit more confidence for the safety aspect. And again that can be adjusted as you get to know your protocols and your clients better.
Eddie Hooker: And just touching on that, Debbie, which is quite a big thing in the industry at the moment, safeguarding, especially if you're moving into more of the intimate areas of the body. How do you deal with? What's a tip to make people you know to get customers feeling comfortable with that, is there any tips? Or things that you do consulting is obviously very important. Sitting down with the patient beforehand and making sure they fully understand what's going on and what's going to happen and aftercare. But is there any anything you specifically look at?
Debbie Thomas: No, I mean, I think first of all as a practitioner, you need to make sure that you are comfortable with the treatment because if you feel slightly awkward about what you're doing people will feel that. So if it's something you're doing just for the sake of doing it, I would probably avoid it. But if it's something that you feel genuinely very comfortable with, then move ahead and also be respectful of your team. Are they comfortable doing something? Are they not? I actually have within my team a couple of my therapists are very, very happy to do male and female intimate treatments. But I have got three or four, I think that prefer not to. Don't feel comfortable with it. So we know who we would book people in with the element of safety that comes into it is obviously everyone knowing what's going on, where someone is. We have iPads in all of our treatment rooms which have got messaging capabilities between our whole team. So we can always communicate with everyone. And, yeah, I think the consultation is very important so that the client or patient understands the process that they’re going to go through, what that means.
But pre and post care consultations are some of the most important things you can do. More so than your treatment. Because if you get your post care wrong, after you’ve done a great treatment, they could still have a very bad reaction. Or vice versa, you know, if your pre care isn’t correct or you know, you don’t fully explain the treatment to them and they think they’ve had a very bad reaction when it’s a normal reaction. These are all things that I see.
Vicky Eldridge: Not explaining the side effects properly.
Eddie Hooker: 100%. I was listening to a radio show on the weekend, or Friday it was actually, and they were talking about general cosmetic and of course this is part of that. And the aesthetic tourism that’s going on and people going over to other countries, and then absolutely no after care because they’re in a completely, so it’s something to be thinking about as well, because I think with regulation coming down the line this is going to be a big part of, it’s not just about how competent you are – have you got all the processes in place…
Debbie Thomas: I mean, the treatments that we’re going in to, it doesn’t matter if you’re coming at it from a medical perspective or from a beauty therapy background or whatever it is, you know, we’re all here to make people feel and look better. And if you are doing something in your practice that is purely for the sake of doing it, you’re pushing it because of money or whatever, no wonder people feel that. But also, the chances of something going wrong do increase quite a lot. You know, you need to be really passionate about what you are doing. Learn it. Take time to understand it when you get a new device take time to play with it, experiment with it, I’ve got a whole group of friends and family who we call our ‘models’.
Vicky Eldridge: I’ve been one of Debbie’s models. Yeah we used to flat share in fact in London for a little bit of background there, and I used to go in and have my treatments.
Debbie Thomas: And that meant my team were happy to do quite conservative settings knowing that there weren’t the expectations of having to get an immediate result. They’d get used to using the device, the hand piece, and they’d work on these models for free that would come in to see us over two or three sessions which allowed them then to kind of also change their settings up and everything. But that confidence they got after actually performing a few sessions without the pressure that this is a paying client and you have to deliver, and just being able to relax and understand the machine a bit better. That for me, I do invest in that. And it is an investment because it’s peoples’ time and sometimes it’s your consumables. But to get a competent and confident practitioner at the end of that is like gold dust.
Vicky Eldridge: Got to ask about insurance, haven’t we. What role does having the right insurance play when you’re doing laser treatments? Because we talked about the risks and things that can go wrong. Um, what’s that meant for your business having insurance in place?
Debbie Thomas: Well, the first thing that the insurance has done for me is I think at the moment in terms of across the whole of the UK, the insurance companies seem to be the ones that are almost putting in more stipulations of what the regulations should be e.g. what qualifications they want to see before they insure someone. I still think there’s a long way to go, but until we as an industry become a bit better it’s going to be hard to iron that out. So I do want to see that the insurance company I’m working with is being responsible in terms of just ensuring there is some level of basic qualifications and everything like that. So that’s the first thing you know as me going into it has made me check, have we got this have we got that. We can’t get insured if we haven’t done this, where’s your certificate for that. So that definitely brings an amount of awareness to us from a business perspective. But then the confidence of knowing that you are going to be backed up, you know, in those instances where there are things that go wrong. And they do go wrong. Even if you do everything right it may go wrong. And just knowing you have that support in place I think it does make you sleep a little bit better at night.
Eddie Hooker: I think people miss this point with the insurance as well, that the primarily it is to defend you if something goes wrong, but remember that it’s the patient that ultimately will lose out if you don’t have insurance. Because there’s no come back for them. You know, if something does genuinely go wrong, we see claims all the time. The patient sues. And if it is a genuine error of the practitioner, that treatment can be rectified, something can be done for that patient, if there is no insurance in place of course there’s nowhere to go apart from sue you personally, and that, going through the courts, is going to take years and I think that is an important point. The other thing I would say on insurance, and I was going to ask this very quick fire question – how do you learn to say no? Because we talk a lot about , I know this, laws, under 18s, but you’re getting a lot of influence out there that are affecting the younger, especially the more vulnerable customers, and they think they have to look in a perfect way and they’ve all got to be photo shopped and everything else. They come into you and you’re sitting there going, you’re 17 you’re 18, there’s nothing wrong and suddenly you want all this. How do you say no? How does a practitioner learn to say no, do you think?
Debbie Thomas: I’m trying to think I do it because I have a conscience.
Eddie Hooker: It’s not all about the money!
Debbie Thomas: It isn’t about the money and actually I think we advertise ourselves in a very specific way. We very rarely have the wrong people coming in. How I talk about my business and our treatments, how we advertise ourselves, how we market ourselves, is always in a very conservative way. We want people to come to us being realistic about what they’re going to get. We don’t have any of these ott images of people looking ott. Even on our website we use very real people, not photoshopped. It’s a bit stylized because we want it to look good. But we are about realism and being real. And I just don’t want it on my conscience, you know, treating someone either that is mentally not suitable for the treatment, which is a huge thing as well. But also, like you say, they really don’t need something done. We have things in our clinic that we could say, look you’re really not ready for that but why don’t you try doing some of this, which will keep your skin healthy. And if they’re still going no, I really want to go for this, I would just say look it’s not something we’re going to do for you. And again, in the long run, in the short run that hurts because you’ve got someone whose 2,3, 4, 5,000 pounds walking out your door. But in the long run you are going to have a better reputation and a good reputation over time will build a really consistent business for you. So it’s difficult I think more difficult when you’re first starting because you’re so desperate to bring people in and make money, but if you can stand by your morals and really enforce those kind of things.
Eddie Hooker: It’s really tough, I do get that. That’s why I’ve always been in the industry not talking about get rich quick. This is all about a long term strategy to be the best practitioner you can be and to have a thriving clinic. But more positively Debbie you’ve got a new skincare range coming up, haven’t you?
Vicky Eldridge: Very exciting!
Eddie Hooker: What made you do that? Because you couldn’t find anything that really didn’t do what you wanted it to do or…
Debbie Thomas: It was a combination of things, I mean number one because I’ve been in the industry for so long and I do have a very good relationship with the press and you know I’ve got well known clients and all of this going on and everyone just kept saying to me when are you going to launch skincare and I wasn’t really planning to to be honest. But people kept going on about it and then I started thinking about how I do my treatments and I think the thing that spurned me on a little bit more is this whole 12 step routine and these over the top routines that are so complex. People come to me all the time and say what one do I put there, when do I use it? So on day one I’ve got these five products that I mix and on day two these six and I’m like what? This is my business and I don’t do that. I’ve got my three products I use every day and that’s it. You just need to use the right ingredients, you don’t need this complex thing. And then I started thinking about how I do my treatments, which is very bespoke, tailored. And when I’m doing the treatments on my clients I’m focusing on multiple things but the thing I do on every single person is at least one thing will always be focusing on skin health. Because if your skin is strong and healthy then everything else will be maintained better. So I started thinking about that in a skin care as well. There’s lots of brands I work with that have great products that I love but they have all been up to this point quite one faceted. You’ve got a serum which has these things in but if you want hydration you’ve got to add that serum and want the brightening you’ve got to add that. And you’re ending up with quite complex things. And I thought with my treatments I’m combining them and they don’t have to think about it, I create a treatment that is very comprehensive and they can just enjoy the process mostly, it’s a bit stingy sometimes, but not really over think it and I thought why can’t we do that with skincare. So the idea is that I’ve created more complex formulas so that the routine will be more simple. And that aligns with what I do in my clinic. And the feedback I get from very busy clients is that you know, they would be more compliant with their skincare if it was easier to do.
Vicky Eldridge: So true! I’ve worked in the industry 20 years and I honestly, quite often I was very lucky when I was in my position as editor of AM as I’d get lots of products. Quite often, I’d get one product here and there that just did one thing and it would be very rare I’d get the chance to try a routine. It would be complicated and I’d miss steps all the time. I’d forget to do this one then …
Eddie Hooker: And is it only available in your clinics?
Debbie Thomas: Well it’s not available yet so this is actually a sneak preview of what’s coming. Um, it possibly outside of that as well. We’re going to do online in the clinic but we’re also looking at potentially going into the retailers as well so should be available in multiple places but starting very small. Again I like to know what I’m doing and be comfortable before going too big, so I’m starting with three products.
Eddie Hooker: And what are you calling it?
Debbie Thomas: That is a secret I’m afraid
Eddie Hooker: Trying to push
Debbie Thomas: Actually no, we have announced it now. It’s Selis by Debbie Thomas, so yes, that’s on Instagram if anyone wants to follow it. You won’t see too much on there at the moment but in the next couple of months there will be a lot more information.
Vicky Eldridge: If you could only use one treatment or product, forever, it’s that very difficult question. What’s your absolute go to for yourself? I guess it’s different for everybody.
Debbie Thomas: I mean we all have to go back to the key pillars of good skin health and the first thing that everyone should do and you know it’s got to be SPF, if I really had to choose it would be SPF daily. But really it’s a bit like asking which child’s your favourite. You just can’t choose you, a bit of a combination is always going to be what gives you the best depending on what your skin needs. But good protection.
Eddie Hooker: Fantastic
Vicky Eldridge: I think that’s all of our questions. It’s been really great chatting to you Debbie I’ve really enjoyed it. It’s always great talking to you, you’re so knowledgeable and really excited for the launch of the skincare.
Eddie Hooker: Absolutely and thank you for the honesty as well because I think we’ve had quite a few tips come out of today for new people listening or watching, um and thank you for coming into Hamilton Fraser really appreciate it.
Debbie Thomas: It’s always my pleasure, I always love educating and helping people and I’m always happy if people want to reach out on our social media, ask questions. I always get asked about devices, what do you think of this, and even some of the business advice as well. I’m quite open to sharing my experience. I think we grow as an industry if we support each other, really.
Eddie Hooker: 100%
Vicky Eldridge: Lovely! Thank you!
